On this "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" broadcast, moderated by Ed O'Keefe:
- Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent
- Sen. Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky
- Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthi, Democrat of Illinois
- Michael Roth, Wesleyan University president
- FDA commissioner Dr. Marty Makary
Click here to browse afloat transcripts from 2025 of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan."
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan successful Washington.
And this week connected Face the Nation: As the turmoil implicit tariffs continues, we volition talk exclusively with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent. The economical whiplash from the on-again/off-again Trump tariffs persists present astatine home, arsenic does the disorder astir the world. As for President Trump, he's doubling down connected his insistence that they volition assistance the U.S. economy.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): And it'll lone get better. The tariffs are truthful important. Without the tariffs, our federation would beryllium successful peril.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We volition speech with Kentucky Republican Senator Rand Paul astir what helium doesn't similar successful the president's big, beauteous bill.
Plus: How volition the administration's caller restrictions connected overseas pupil visas interaction America's colleges and universities? House Democrat Raja Krishnamoorthi and Wesleyan University President Michael Roth volition beryllium here.
Finally, we volition get immoderate clarity connected whether oregon not steadfast children and large women should get the COVID vaccine aft a week of mixed messaging from Trump medication wellness officials. FDA Commissioner Dr. Marty Makary volition articulation america to wide things up.
It's each conscionable up connected Face the Nation.
Good morning, and invited to Face the Nation.
We statesman contiguous with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent.
Good morning, and convey you for being present morning.
SCOTT BESSENT (U.S. Treasury Secretary): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There's truthful overmuch to get to. I privation to commencement with China, due to the fact that the defence caput conscionable said there's an imminent subject menace from China to Taiwan.
Days earlier, Secretary Rubio said he'd aggressively revoked Chinese pupil visas. On apical of that, you person curbing exports to China. Trade talks, you said, with Beijing are stalled, and President Trump conscionable accused China of violating an agreement, and present says nary much Mr. Nice Guy.
Are you intentionally escalating this standoff with Beijing?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, I don't deliberation it's intentional.
I – I deliberation that what Secretary Hegseth did was punctual everyone that, during COVID, China was an unreliable partner. And what we are trying to bash is to de-risk. We bash not privation to decouple, Margaret, but we bash request to de- risk, arsenic we saw during COVID, whether it was with semiconductors, medicines, the different products. We are successful the process of de-risking.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Making the United States little reliant connected China, but astatine the same…
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, and the full world, the full world, due to the fact that what China is doing is, they are holding backmost products that are indispensable for the concern proviso chains of India, of Europe, and that is not what a reliable spouse does.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, is that – like, what specifically is President Trump saying erstwhile helium says they are violating an agreement? Because it was the 1 you negotiated successful Geneva earlier this month.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And what's the effect for that?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, we volition spot what the consequences are.
I americium assured that, erstwhile President Trump and Party Chairman Xi person a call, that this volition beryllium ironed out. So – but the information that they are withholding immoderate of the products that they agreed to merchandise during our agreement, possibly it's a glitch successful the Chinese system. Maybe it's intentional. We'll spot aft the president speaks with the enactment chairman.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's captious minerals, uncommon earths? Is that what you're talking about?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, the president has said a fewer times that helium was going to talk to President Xi, but helium hasn't since earlier the inauguration.
Beijing keeps denying that determination was immoderate contact. Do you person thing scheduled?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: I judge we'll spot thing precise soon, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you person a speech with your counterpart oregon Lutnick with his counterpart astatine the commerce level?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, I deliberation we're going to fto the 2 principles person a conversation, and past everything volition stem from that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: J.P. Morgan Jamie Dimon spoke this week astatine an economical forum, and helium gave this work connected Beijing:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMIE DIMON (Chairman, J.P. Morgan Chase): I conscionable got backmost from China past week. They're not scared, folks. This conception they're going to travel bow to America, no, I wouldn't number connected that. You know, and erstwhile they person a problem, they enactment 100,000 engineers connected it, and, no, they've been preparing for this for years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Have you underestimated the Chinese state's backbone here?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Again, Margaret, I anticipation it doesn't travel to that.
And Jamie is simply a large banker. I cognize him well, but I would vociferously disagree with that assessment, that the laws of economics and gravity use to the Chinese system and the Chinese system, conscionable similar everyone else.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But erstwhile you were past present successful March, we were trying to gauge what the interaction of the standoff with China and with the tariffs connected the remainder of the satellite would bash for American consumers present astatine home.
At that time, you told america you were going to name an affordability czar and assembly to fig retired 5 – you said, oregon 8 areas wherever determination volition beryllium immoderate symptom for working-class Americans. Where are you anticipating terms increases?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, frankincense acold – we wanted to marque definite that determination aren't terms increases, Margaret. And, frankincense far, determination person been nary terms increases. Everything has been alarmist, that the ostentation numbers are really dropping.
We saw the archetypal driblet of ostentation successful 4 years. The ostentation numbers past week, they were precise – the – pro-consumer. We've seen…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. But you perceive to net calls conscionable similar we do. You cognize what Walmart's saying, what Best Buy's saying and what Target are saying of what's coming.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: But, Margaret, I besides cognize what Home Depot and Amazon are saying. I cognize what the "South China Morning Post" wrote wrong the past 24 hours, that 65 percent, 65 percent – the – of the tariffs volition apt beryllium eaten by the Chinese producers.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, are determination 5 oregon 8 areas that you person identified, arsenic you said backmost successful March, wherever American consumers volition beryllium capable to person little prices, oregon should beryllium warned of higher prices?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, a batch of it's already moving its mode done the system. So we've seen a important alteration successful gasoline and vigor prices. So that's down 20 percent twelvemonth implicit year.
We've seen the nutrient prices spell down, these notorious ovum prices. Through the bully enactment of President Trump and Secretary Rollins, ovum prices person collapsed. So we're seeing much and more. And what we privation to do, the – is adjacent that retired crossed the – each sections of the economy.
So, ostentation has been precise tame. Consumer net were up 0.8 percent past month, which is simply a gigantic summation for 1 month. So, existent net minus debased ostentation is large for the American people, and that's what we're seeing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you know, due to the fact that erstwhile you met with the Chinese earlier this month, and you went down from the 145 percent tariff down to astir – it's similar 30 percent; 30 percent's not nothing, that taxation connected goods coming successful here.
Retailers are informing of terms hikes.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, but – but – but – but…
MARGARET BRENNAN: When you spell back-to-school shopping, things are going to outgo more.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: But, Margaret, immoderate are and immoderate aren't. Home Depot and Amazon said they're not. And I…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Home Depot and Amazon aren't wherever you spell for your back- to-school shopping, erstwhile you bargain your jeans, erstwhile you bargain your crayons, and you bargain each those things that parents…
(CROSSTALK)
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: I don't cognize astir you, but I bash it online astatine Amazon.
This isn't an advertisement for Amazon. And conjecture wherever astir of the Halloween costumes successful America get bought? At Home Depot. So that's conscionable not right. There's a wide aperture here. Different companies are doing antithetic things. They are making decisions based connected their customers, what they deliberation they're capable to walk on to their customers, what they privation to bash to support their customers.
And I was successful the concern concern for 35 years, Margaret, and I volition archer you net calls, they person to springiness the worst-case scenario, due to the fact that if it – if they haven't and thing atrocious happens, past they'll beryllium sued.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It's not ever the worst case. It's the astir probable lawsuit arsenic well.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, they person to springiness the worst case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Walmart – determination was conscionable a portion published with the blimpish strategist Karl Rove. I'm not asking astir politics, due to the fact that helium is simply a governmental strategist, but helium went successful connected the mathematics here.
And helium points retired that Walmart has a nett borderline of little than 3 percent. He says: "If it does what Mr. Trump says, devour the tariffs, it can't interruption even. It can't sorb the outgo of an imported brace of kids jeans with a 46 percent tariff connected Vietnam, a 37 percent tariff for Bangladesh, oregon 32 percent tariff connected sneakers from Indonesia. Other companies are successful the aforesaid pickle."
So should companies chopped backmost connected the magnitude of goods they person connected their shelves oregon conscionable connected their profitability?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: That – that's a determination institution by – by company, Margaret.
And I had a agelong treatment with Doug McMillon, the CEO of Walmart, and they're going to bash what's close for them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But, for consumers, the world is, determination volition either beryllium little inventory oregon things astatine higher prices, oregon both.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Margaret, erstwhile we were present successful March, you said determination was going to beryllium large inflation. There hasn't been immoderate inflation. Actually, the ostentation numbers are the champion successful 4 years. So wherefore don't we halt trying to accidental this could hap and hold and spot what does happen?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Just trying to gauge for radical readying up here.
One of the things the president said connected Friday is that he's going to treble the tariffs connected alloy and aluminum up to 50 percent effectual June the 4th. How overmuch volition that interaction the operation industry?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, I deliberation – I was with the president astatine the U.S. Steel works successful Pittsburgh connected Friday, and I volition archer you that the president has the – reignited the alloy manufacture present successful America.
And backmost to the earlier statements connected nationalist security, determination are nationalist information priorities present for having a beardown alloy industry.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But bash you person a prediction connected however overmuch it's going to interaction the operation industry, for example?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, I – I person a prediction connected however overmuch it's going to interaction the alloy industry.
And, you know, we – again, we'll see. There are a batch of elasticities that – you know, this is simply a precise analyzable ecosystem. So is it going to interaction the operation industry? Maybe. But it's going to interaction the alloy manufacture the – successful a large way. The steelworkers, again, were near connected the broadside of the roadworthy aft the China shock, and present they're back, that the – they are Trump supporters.
And erstwhile I archer you that it was magic successful the arena, oregon it was really astatine the alloy works that night, that these hardworking Americans cognize their jobs are secure…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: … there's going to beryllium superior investment, and the fig of jobs is going to beryllium grown astir the country, whether it's successful Pittsburgh, whether it's successful Arkansas, whether it's successful Alabama.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I privation to inquire you astir this large taxation measure that worked done the House, is going to the Senate next.
In it is an summation oregon suspension to the indebtedness bounds that you request delivered connected by mid-July. How adjacent of a brushwood with default could this be, fixed however monolithic immoderate of the Senate changes are expected to beryllium to the different parts of the bill?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, archetypal of all, Margaret, I volition accidental the United States of America is ne'er going to default. That is ne'er going to happen, that we are connected the informing way and we volition ne'er deed the wall.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You person much wiggle country if they don't present this by mid-July? I mean, however hard of a day is this?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: The – we don't springiness retired the X-date, due to the fact that we usage that to determination the measure forward.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sometimes, deadlines assistance unit action, arsenic you know, peculiarly successful this town, sir. That's wherefore I'm asking.
The president did accidental helium – helium expects beauteous important changes to this bill, though, truthful that affects the timing of it moving. What would you similar Republican lawmakers to keep? What would you similar them to alter?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Again, that's going to beryllium the Senate's decision. Leader Thune, who I person worked intimately with during this process, has been doing a fantastic job.
And, Margaret, I volition constituent out, everyone said that Speaker Johnson would not beryllium capable to get this measure retired of the House with his slim majority. He got it out. Leader Thune has a bigger majority, and this is with President Trump's leadership. So, I…
MARGARET BRENNAN: There's nary reddish lines for you successful determination of conscionable don't interaction this, you can, you know, tinker with that?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well, I – I deliberation that they're not needfully my reddish lines.
The president has the – his run promises that helium wants to fulfill for moving Americans, truthful nary taxation connected tips, nary taxation connected overtime, nary taxation connected Social Security, deductibility of car loans for American-made automobiles.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So those person to enactment in, is what you're saying.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Those person to enactment in.
MARGARET BRENNAN: J.P. Morgan's Dimon besides predicted a indebtedness marketplace crisis. Cracks successful the enslaved market' was what helium said.
You are considering easing immoderate regulations, you've said, for the large banks. How bash you debar that enslaved marketplace situation he's predicting spreading and truly causing concern, peculiarly with each of the worries astir American indebtedness close now?
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: So, again, I person known Jamie a agelong time. And for his full career, he's made predictions similar this. Fortunately, nary of them person travel true. That's wherefore he's a banker, a large banker. He tries to look astir the corner.
One of the reasons I'm sitting present talking to you contiguous and not astatine location watching your amusement is that I was acrophobic astir the level of debt. So the shortage this twelvemonth is going to beryllium little than the shortage past year, and successful 2 years it volition beryllium little again. We are going to bring the shortage down slowly.
We didn't get present successful 1 year. We didn't get present successful 1 year, and this has been a agelong process. So the extremity is to bring it down implicit the adjacent 4 years, permission the state successful large signifier successful 2028.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You cognize that the talker of the House estimates this is going to adhd $4 trillion to $5 trillion implicit the adjacent 10 years, and there's that indebtedness bounds increase.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Well again, Margaret, that's CBO scoring.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's the talker of the House.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: No, no, no.
MARGARET BRENNAN: He said it past Sunday connected this program.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: The – helium said that's the CBO scoring. Let me…
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, helium said that sounds right.
SECRETARY SCOTT BESSENT: Let maine archer you what's not included successful there, what can't beryllium scored.
So we're taking successful important tariff income close now, truthful determination are estimates that that could beryllium different $2 trillion that we are the – pushing done savings. So you cognize my estimation is, that could beryllium up to different $100 cardinal a year. So, implicit the 10-year window, that could beryllium a trillion.
The president has a medicine cause program with the pharmaceutical companies that could substantially propulsion down costs for medicine drugs, and that could beryllium different trillion. So there's the four.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Treasury Secretary Bessent, we'll beryllium watching intimately what happens next.
Face the Nation volition beryllium backmost successful a minute, truthful enactment with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we spell present to Republican Senator Rand Paul, who joins america from Lexington, Kentucky, this morning.
Good greeting to you.
SENATOR RAND PAUL (R-Kentucky): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You conscionable heard the treasury caput accidental a fig of things, dismissed the imaginable terms increases that could travel from the tariffs erstwhile it comes to retailers. He besides played down the outgo of this taxation and borderline measure that conscionable passed done the House.
Do you hold with his math?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Well, the mathematics doesn't truly adhd up.
One of the things this large and beauteous measure is, is, it's a conveyance for expanding spending for the subject and for the border. It's astir $320 cardinal successful caller spending. To enactment that successful perspective, that's much than each the DOGE cuts that we person recovered truthful far. So, the summation successful spending enactment into this measure exceeds the DOGE cuts.
When you look conscionable astatine the borderline wall, they person $46.5 cardinal for the borderline wall. Well, the existent estimation from the CBP is $6.5 cardinal per mile. So if you did 1,000 miles, that's $6.5 billion, but they person $46 billion. So they person inflated the outgo of the partition eightfold.
So there's a batch of caller spending that has to beryllium counteracted. But, essentially, this is simply a measure by the subject concern analyzable advocates who are padding the subject budget. There's going to beryllium a batch of other money.
Look, the president has fundamentally stopped the borderline travel without caller wealth and without immoderate caller legislation. So I deliberation they're asking for excessively overmuch money. And, successful the end, the mode you adhd it up to spot if it really is going to prevention wealth oregon adhd wealth is, however overmuch indebtedness are they going to borrow?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Five trillion implicit 2 years, tremendous amount.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. That was the fig that the caput was quibbling over.
The president has taken enactment of immoderate of your skepticism, and helium did tweet yesterday, saying that if you, Rand Paul, ballot against his monolithic borderline and taxation bill, the radical of Kentucky volition ne'er forgive you.
(LAUGHTER)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you see that a threat? And bash you cognize if you person 3 different Republicans who volition articulation you to artifact it from passage?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: I had a precise bully speech with the president this week astir tariffs. He did astir of the talking, and we don't hold precisely connected the outcome.
But erstwhile I travel location to Kentucky, I speech to the Farm Bureau, which is opposed to the tariffs. I speech to the bourbon industry, which is opposed to the tariffs. I speech to the cargo companies, UPS, DHL. All of their pilots are opposed to it. I speech to the hardwood level people. I speech to the radical selling houses, gathering houses.
I person nary organized concern – concern involvement successful Kentucky for the tariffs. So I deliberation it's worthy the discussion, and it's worthy radical remembering that the Republicans utilized to beryllium for little taxes. Tariffs are a tax.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: So, if you rise taxes connected the backstage sector, that's not bully for the backstage sector.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we perceive from different senators who besides get complaints from their – radical successful their districts, but they're falling successful line. Do you person 3 different Republicans who volition basal with you to artifact this bill?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: I deliberation determination are 4 of america astatine this point, and I would beryllium precise amazed if the measure astatine slightest is not modified successful a bully direction.
Look, I privation to ballot for it. I'm for the taxation cuts. I voted for the taxation cuts before. I privation the taxation cuts to beryllium permanent. But, astatine the aforesaid time, I don't privation to rise the indebtedness ceiling $5 trillion.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: So I person told them, if you instrumentality the indebtedness ceiling disconnected the bill, successful each likelihood, I tin ballot for what the statement is connected the remainder of the bill, and it doesn't person to beryllium cleanable to my liking.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: But I can't beryllium – if I ballot for the $5 trillion debt, who's near successful Washington that cares astir the debt? We volition person lost.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But…
SENATOR RAND PAUL: The GOP volition ain the indebtedness erstwhile they ballot for this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the leader, arsenic you know, is benignant of successful a choky spot here. He needs a conveyance to rise that indebtedness ceiling. Otherwise, you had to crook to Democrats to get that done.
What was the White House effect erstwhile you asked that to the president?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Well, historically, the indebtedness ceiling has ever gone up and volition ever spell up, and I'm not proposing that it doesn't. But the radical who should ballot for it are the radical who ballot for the spending.
Historically, each the Democrats ballot for raising the indebtedness ceiling, and astir 15 large authorities Republicans ballot for it. This volition beryllium the archetypal clip it's voted connected conscionable by Republicans. This volition beryllium the archetypal clip that Republicans ain the debt. They already ain the spending.
In March, we continued, not me, but astir Republicans voted to proceed the Biden spending levels. So, you volition retrieve the campaign. Everybody was talking astir Bidenomics and Biden ostentation and Biden spending levels. Well, the Republicans each voted to support the Biden spending levels, and that's wherefore the shortage this twelvemonth is going to beryllium $2.2 trillion this year.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you deliberation is this atrocious authorities for Republicans?
Some of your Republican colleagues similar Josh Hawley are saying that the changes to Medicaid are atrocious authorities for America's moving radical and for your party.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: I deliberation it was a atrocious strategy. I deliberation the taxation cuts are bully for the economy. When we passed the taxation cuts successful 2017, the system grew similar gangbusters. We had lowest unemployment historically. It was the large accomplishment of Trump's archetypal administration.
They should person been satisfied by conscionable doing the taxation portion of this…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: … and not getting progressive into the indebtedness portion of it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The past clip you were with america successful March, you talked astir conversations you had with Elon Musk. As you know, he's conscionable near his enactment with the administration.
You had projected a rescission request, a clawback of astir $500 cardinal from wealth Congress had already signed disconnected on. We cognize present that the White House is going to inquire Congress this week for immoderate rescissions. Sounds similar it's conscionable $9.4 billion. And it's PBS, it's NPR and it's overseas aid.
Is this truly the champion strategy? And bash you deliberation 51 Republican senators are connected committee with it?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: First of all, I volition ballot for spending cuts, the more, the better. This is very, precise small. To enactment it successful perspective, if the shortage this twelvemonth is $2.2 trillion, if you chopped $9 billion, the shortage is going to beryllium $2.191 trillion.
It truly doesn't materially alteration the people of the country. We should bash it, by each means, and it is the low-hanging fruit. This is the wealth that was pointed retired that was being spent for enactment alteration operations successful Guatemala, trans opera successful Columbia, each this brainsick spending. Yes, it should beryllium cut.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sesame Street.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: But I had an amendment astir a period – excuse me?
MARGARET BRENNAN: It's Sesame Street. It's PBS and NPR.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Yes. Yes. And I deliberation – yes, you're right. We volition spot if there's the votes to chopped it.
I don't deliberation we needfully request authorities programming anymore. We person truthful galore choices connected the Internet and truthful galore choices connected television. But my penchant has ever been successful the past to chopped a small spot of everything, alternatively than chopped a batch of something.
So what I person done successful the past is suggest a penny program fund wherever we chopped a definite percent of everything, but it includes entitlements oregon it doesn't truly work. Once you exclude the entitlements, determination isn't capable wealth to cut.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAND PAUL: So you tin ne'er execute equilibrium by not looking astatine the entitlements.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The fund manager connected different programme this greeting said they whitethorn not request to usage this rescission, this clawback, due to the fact that the White House has different tools. Do you deliberation they request to spell done Congress? Is this overstepping?
SENATOR RAND PAUL: Well, they perfectly person to usage a recession – the rescission.
And it is done by elemental majority, by Republicans only. There is nary filibuster of it. So it's a large instrumentality to chopped spending. If they don't usage it, it volition beryllium a immense wasted opportunity. But I volition archer you, they tried successful the archetypal Trump administration. And it wasn't their fault. They sent a tiny one, $16 billion, and it failed due to the fact that 2 Republicans went the different way.
So we volition spot what happens connected this, but if we can't adjacent chopped payment that we're giving to different countries, if we can't chopped overseas assistance welfare, I consciousness atrocious for the country. Interest rates are rising. We're having occupation selling our debt. We person got a batch of problems.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator Rand Paul.
We volition beryllium close back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Be definite to tune into CBS News 24/7 weekdays astatine 5:00 p.m. Eastern for our caller streaming amusement The Takeout hosted by main Washington analogous Major Garrett for your regular dose of politics, policy, popular civilization and more.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We volition beryllium close backmost with a batch much Face the Nation, including the caller FDA commissioner, Dr. Marty – Marty Makary.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome backmost to FACE THE NATION.
We're joined present by FDA Commissioner Dr. Marty Makary.
Good morning.
MARTY MAKARY (FDA Commissioner): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Good to person you present successful person.
MARTY MAKARY: Good to beryllium here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, I privation to get done a batch here. But 1 of the things we've noticed is this caller Covid variant that seems to beryllium circulating successful Asia. I judge it's NB1.8.1. It's a variant nether monitoring (ph). What bash we request to know?
MARTY MAKARY: Yes, truthful this appears to beryllium a subvariant of JN1, which has been the ascendant strain. So, it's believed that determination is transverse immunity protection. The Covid microorganism is going to proceed to mutate and it's behaving similar a communal acold virus. It's present going to go the 5th coronavirus that's seasonal that causes astir 25 percent of the cases of the communal cold.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you're reasoning of it arsenic similar a – a – a flu-type variant? Just mean fluctuations.
MARTY MAKARY: The flu mutates astir 34 times much often than Covid. The Covid variant mutation complaint appears to beryllium a small much stable. But the planetary bodies that person provided immoderate guidance connected which strain to people person suggested that either JN1 oregon immoderate of these subvariants would beryllium tenable strains to target.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you don't look overly acrophobic astir that.
I privation to get present into immoderate of the recommendations that person been precise circumstantial this week from the CDC. and you, with the HHS secretary, successful this video announcement connected Tuesday, wherever Secretary Kennedy said the CDC was removing the Covid vaccine for steadfast children and steadfast large women from its recommended immunization schedule. He past had a memo to the CDC rescinding recommendations for kids' vaccines, saying the known risks bash not outweigh the benefits. Then, precocious Thursday, the CDC said, quote, "shared objective decision-making," which I deliberation is conscionable talking to your doc –
MARTY MAKARY: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Should find whether kids get vaccinated.
Can you intelligibly authorities what the argumentation is, due to the fact that this is confusing?
MARTY MAKARY: Yes, we judge the proposal should beryllium with the diligent and their doctor. So, we're going to get distant from these broad recommendations successful healthy, young Americans due to the fact that we don't privation to spot –
MARGARET BRENNAN: For each vaccines?
MARTY MAKARY: We don't – well, connected the Covid vaccine schedule, we don't privation to spot kids kicked retired of schoolhouse due to the fact that a 12-year-old miss is not getting her 5th Covid booster shot. We don't spot the information determination to enactment a young, steadfast kid getting a repetition infinite yearly Covid vaccine.
There's a mentation that we should benignant of blindly o.k. the caller Covid boosters successful young, steadfast kids each twelvemonth successful perpetuity and a – a young miss calved contiguous should get 80 Covid mRNA shots oregon different Covid shots successful her mean lifespan. We're saying that's a mentation and we'd similar to cheque successful and get immoderate randomized controlled data. It's been astir 4 years since the archetypal randomized trials. So, we'd similar an evidence-based approach. Dr. Persad (ph) and I published this successful "The New England Journal of Medicine" past week. And we're fundamentally saying, we'd similar to bring immoderate assurance backmost to the nationalist astir this repetition booster strategy mentation due to the fact that –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Your connection was not astir repetition boosters. It says, the vaccine is not recommended for large women. The vaccine is not recommended for steadfast children. That's antithetic than yearly boosters.
MARTY MAKARY: At – astatine – yes, astatine this constituent we're dealing – you know, it is simply a booster strategy – radical would beryllium getting the updated shot. So, whether oregon not a young, steadfast –
MARGARET BRENNAN: But what astir kids who haven't gotten the shot?
MARTY MAKARY: So, we'd similar to spot the data.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well –
MARTY MAKARY: We'd emotion to spot that – that – that data. It doesn't exist.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, no, no, but connected a applicable level. For a genitor astatine location proceeding you and trying to marque consciousness of you.
MARTY MAKARY: Yes. We're saying, instrumentality it backmost to your doctor.
MARGARET BRENNAN: If their kid has not been vaccinated, are you recommending that their archetypal brushwood with Covid beryllium an existent infection?
MARTY MAKARY: We're not going to propulsion the Covid changeable successful young, steadfast kids without immoderate objective proceedings information supporting it. That is simply a determination betwixt a genitor and their doctor. And conscionable truthful you – I don't cognize if you cognize these statistics, but 80 – for 88 percent of American kids, their parents person said nary to the Covid changeable past season.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MARTY MAKARY: So, America – the immense bulk of Americans are saying, no. Maybe they privation to spot immoderate objective information arsenic well. Maybe they person concerns astir the safety.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I don't privation to assemblage root my wellness guidance. I privation a wide thing, right?
MARTY MAKARY: The worst happening – the worst happening –
MARGARET BRENNAN: You don't spell with popularity, spell with, arsenic you're saying, data. And erstwhile we look astatine that information –
MARTY MAKARY: Yes, truthful let's spot the data.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. So, the CDC information said 41 percent of children property six months to 17 years hospitalized with Covid betwixt 2022 and 2024 did not person a known underlying condition. In different words, they looked healthy.
MARTY MAKARY: So –
MARGARET BRENNAN: And Covid was superior for them.
MARTY MAKARY: So, we – archetypal of all, we cognize the CDC information is contaminated with a batch of mendacious positives from incidental affirmative Covid tests with regular investigating of each kid that walks successful the hospital.
When I spell to the ICU –
MARGARET BRENNAN: (INAUDIBLE) CDC.
MARTY MAKARY: When I locomotion to the – we cognize – we cognize that information historically, nether the Biden administration, did not separate being sick from Covid oregon an incidental affirmative Covid test.
When you spell to an ICU successful America and you ask, however galore radical are successful the ICU that are healthy, that are sick with Covid, I – the reply I get again and again is, we haven't seen that successful a twelvemonth oregon years. And so, with the worst happening you tin bash successful nationalist wellness is to enactment retired an implicit cosmopolitan proposal successful young steadfast kids. And the immense bulk of Americans are saying, no, we privation to spot immoderate data. And you say, hide astir the data, conscionable get it anyway.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK. So, connected information and transparency, for decades, since 1964, it was the Advisory Committee connected Immunization Practices, ACIP, that went done this sheet recommendation. I mean radical watched these things during Covid. The study was past handed up. It offered debate, it offered transparency and it offered information points that radical could notation backmost to. Why did you bypass each of this and conscionable travel down with a determination earlier the sheet could conscionable and marque that data?
MARTY MAKARY: That – that sheet has been a kangaroo tribunal wherever they conscionable rubber stamp each azygous vaccine enactment successful beforehand of them. If you look astatine the minutes of the study from –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Weren't they successful the (INAUDIBLE)?
MARTY MAKARY: They – they adjacent say, we were – mostly privation to determination towards a hazard stratified approach. But spell –
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, wherefore not fto them bash that successful June?
MARTY MAKARY: So, successful the meantime, we don't privation an implicit proposal for steadfast kids to get it. They tin bash it. And that committee – committee volition conscionable and marque recommendations.
But you look astatine the minutes of the past mates years, they say, we privation a elemental connection for everybody conscionable truthful they tin recognize it. It was not a data-based conversation. It was a speech based connected selling and ease. And – and I've written an nonfiction titled "why radical don't spot the CDC," and it's successful portion from that broad strategy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, you're benignant of telling them not to close now. You conscionable said, don't spot the CDC.
MARTY MAKARY: We're saying it's going to beryllium betwixt a doc and a diligent until that committee meets oregon much experts measurement successful oregon we get immoderate objective data. If there's zero objective data, you're opining. I mean you're conscionable – it's a theory. And so, we don't privation to enactment retired an implicit proposal for kids with nary objective information to enactment it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. So, you made this pronouncement arsenic good connected large women. There is data, researchers successful the U.K. analyzed a bid of 67 studies which included 1.8 cardinal women. And the diary BMJ Global Health published it. People tin Google it astatine home. And it says the Covid vaccine "in large women is highly effectual successful reducing the likelihood of maternal SARS-CoV-2 infection, and infirmary admission, and improves gestation outcomes, with nary information concerns."
This is information that shows that it is recommended oregon could beryllium advised for large women to instrumentality the vaccine. Why bash you find otherwise?
MARTY MAKARY: There's nary randomized controlled trial. That's the golden standard. Those 67 studies are mixed. The information successful large women is antithetic for steadfast versus women with a – a co-morbid condition. So, it's a precise mixed bag. So, we're saying, your obstetrician, your superior attraction doc and the large pistillate should unneurotic determine whether oregon not to get it.
Twelve percent of large women past twelvemonth got the Covid shot. So, radical person superior concerns and it's astir apt due to the fact that they privation to spot a – a randomized proceedings data. The randomized proceedings successful large women –
MARGARET BRENNAN: But successful the meantime, the satellite moves on. And you published successful "The New England Journal of Medicine" connected May 20th, successful that study you referenced, you listed gestation arsenic an underlying aesculapian information that increases a person's hazard for terrible Covid. You said that.
So, then, 7 days later, you joined successful this video announcement saying you should driblet the proposal for the Covid vaccine successful healthy, large women. So, what changed successful the 7 days?
MARTY MAKARY: In "The New England Journal of Medicine" we simply database what the – what the CDC has traditionally defined arsenic precocious risk. And we're – we're conscionable saying, determine with your doctor. We're not saying 1 mode oregon the other. And the randomized proceedings –
MARGARET BRENNAN: But doctors privation information and accusation arsenic good from you and you're –
MARTY MAKARY: So, here's the information connected – connected large women. A randomized controlled proceedings was acceptable up and it was closed without immoderate explanation. We wanted to spot that proceedings implicit truthful women tin person accusation that successful a randomized power trial, which is the golden standard, this is what the information shows. We don't person those data.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right. It is inactive unclear what large women present should bash until they get the information that you accidental –
MARTY MAKARY: I'd say, speech to their doctor.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When bash they get the information you're promising, each these controlled studies?
MARTY MAKARY: In the lack of information they should speech to their doc and their doc volition usage their champion contented and judgement.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, nary data.
FDA commissioner, convey you for trying to assistance wide this up.
Up next, the imaginable interaction of those caller policies regarding overseas pupil visas.
We'll beryllium close back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We crook present to the apical Democrat connected the House Select Committee connected the Chinese Communist Party, that's Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi. He's successful Illinois.
Good greeting to you.
I privation to get –
CONGRESSMAN RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I privation to get consecutive to it.
You heard from the caput of authorities this week that the State Department is going to enactment with Homeland Security to aggressively revoke visas for Chinese students, including those with connections to the Chinese Communist Party for studying successful captious fields. There are similar 300,000 Chinese students with visas successful this country. The U.S. authorities already has a heightened level of vetting. What's going to change?
CONGRESSMAN RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI: I don't know. There's not capable details. But what it looks similar that they're targeting each radical of Chinese root who are connected planetary pupil visas due to the fact that he's not limiting it to conscionable radical who mightiness person ties to the Chinese Communist Party. And if they bash person those ties, they don't beryllium here, particularly if they're committing nefarious acts.
However, this appears to beryllium overmuch broader and it's terribly misguided and it appears prejudicial and discriminatory. My ain begetter was – came present connected an planetary pupil visa and I judge that these radical are captious for our system and for entrepreneurship successful this country. And I deliberation this is going to harm America much than help.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you said if idiosyncratic has ties to the Chinese Communist Party they shouldn't beryllium here. Does that mean each the students – the students who were children of leaders, for example, Xi Jinping's ain daughter, shouldn't person been allowed here?
CONGRESSMAN RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, if they were engaged successful nefarious activities and if they are someway profoundly connected to the CCP, I deliberation that we should beryllium precise careful. But successful this peculiar case, they're not lone going aft radical who mightiness autumn successful that category, but it's anybody who is from China, including Hong Kong, by the way, wherever radical are really persecuted for assorted freedoms they're trying to workout and who travel present seeking to workout those freedoms.
So, this is simply a unspeakable – terribly misguided policy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The Biden medication did behaviour heightened vetting, arsenic you know, of Chinese students. Do you deliberation that there's a morganatic statement for expanding this, that definite areas should conscionable beryllium off-limits?
CONGRESSMAN RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI: I deliberation that you should decidedly person heightened vetting, particularly successful definite captious areas, due to the fact that we cognize that the CCP tries to steal, for instance, intelligence property, oregon worse. But the mode that this is presently structured looks very, precise suspicious. And you person to retrieve that the radical that are cheering for this policy, what Marco Rubio had called for, is the Chinese Communist Party. Why? Because they privation these radical back. They privation the scientists and the entrepreneurs and the engineers who tin travel and assistance their economy.
And so, we are astir apt helping them, arsenic good arsenic different countries, much than helping ourselves with this policy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The defence caput is traveling successful Asia close now. And helium said successful a defence forum code that Beijing is, quote, "concretely and credibly preparing to usage subject force." He said their subject is rehearsing.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VC)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Any effort by communist China to conquer Taiwan by unit would effect successful devastating consequences for the Indo- Pacific and the world. There's nary crushed to sweetener overgarment it. The menace China poses is real, and it could beryllium imminent.
(END VC)
MARGARET BRENNAN: He did not accidental what the consequences would be. Are you encouraged by what appears to beryllium a connection of enactment for allies?
CONGRESSMAN RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI: I am. I deliberation what he's saying is mostly correct. But I deliberation the occupation is, astatine the aforesaid clip helium says that, either Donald Trump oregon adjacent him oregon others accidental different things that propulsion distant our friends, partners, and allies successful the portion and origin confusion. And so, we request to beryllium accordant and thoughtful with respect to our statements and we request to beryllium besides precise methodical astir our actions successful trying to curb subject aggression by the Chinese Communist Party successful the South China Sea and with respect to Taiwan.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Since you way U.S. intelligence, I wanted to inquire you if you person immoderate penetration into what appears to beryllium the swarm of Ukrainian drones that has destroyed 40 Russian subject craft heavy wrong Russian territory overnight. Sources are telling our Jennifer Jacobs that the White House wasn't alert that this onslaught was planned.
What tin you archer america astir the level of U.S. quality sharing with Ukraine close present and helping them with their targets?
CONGRESSMAN RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI: I – I don't privation to get into classified information. But what I tin accidental is that it's a small spot much strained successful airy of what Donald Trump has said recently.
The 1 happening that I tin besides accidental is that Trump was close the different time to accidental that Putin is brainsick successful the mode that he's going aft civilian areas successful Ukraine, repeatedly. And so, the Ukrainians are striking back.
At the extremity of the day, the lone mode that we tin bring these hostilities to an extremity is by strengthening the manus of the Ukrainians. Trump should, astatine this point, recognize that Putin is playing him and assistance the Ukrainians successful their battlefield efforts. That's the champion mode to get to immoderate benignant of armistice oregon truce astatine the negotiating table, sooner than alternatively later.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right.
Congressman Krishnamoorthi, convey you for your insights today.
And we're turning present to the president of Wesleyan University, Michael Roth, who joins america from Monterey, Massachusetts.
Good greeting to you.
MICHAEL ROTH (President, Wesleyan University): Good morning. Good to beryllium with you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I privation to prime up connected thing we were conscionable discussing with the congressman, and that is this acquisition to person caller scrutiny of Chinese students. But besides much broadly, Secretary Rubio said each U.S. embassies should not docket immoderate caller pupil visa exertion appointments astatine this time. About 14 percent of your students are international. Are you acrophobic they won't beryllium capable to travel backmost to schoolhouse successful September?
MICHAEL ROTH: I'm precise concerned. Not lone astir Wesleyan, but astir higher acquisition successful the United States.
One of the large things astir our strategy of acquisition is that it attracts radical from each implicit the satellite who privation to travel to America to learn. And portion they're present learning, they larn astir our country, our values, our freedoms. And this is truly an enactment of intimidation to scare schools into towing the enactment of the existent administration. It truly has thing to bash with nationalist information oregon with anti-Semitism. This is – this heightened scrutiny is – is meant to instill fearfulness connected assemblage campuses, and I'm acrophobic it is working.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it is noticeable, sir, that, you know, astatine a clip erstwhile truthful galore higher acquisition institutions, Harvard, Columbia, Brown, person had national backing revoked due to the fact that of their policies, we find heads of universities are fearful of speaking out. Why are you not acrophobic of speaking critically?
MICHAEL ROTH: Well, I am. I'm acrophobic too. But I conscionable find it bonzer that Americans are acrophobic to talk out. Especially radical who, you know, tally colleges and universities. Why – which – this is simply a escaped country. I've been saying it my full life. I utilized to archer my parents that erstwhile I didn't privation to bash something. I would say, it's a escaped country. And this thought that we're expected to really conform to the ideologies successful the White House, it's not conscionable atrocious for Harvard oregon for Wesleyan, it's – it's atrocious for the full state due to the fact that journalists are being intimidated, instrumentality firms are being intimidated, churches, synagogues and mosques volition beryllium next. We person to support our freedoms.
And erstwhile we bring planetary students here, what they acquisition is what it's similar to unrecorded successful a escaped country. And we can't fto the president alteration the ambiance truthful that radical travel present and are acrophobic to talk out.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But determination are besides immoderate circumstantial criticisms being lodged by members of the administration. Do you deliberation that higher acquisition has go excessively babelike connected national funding, for example, oregon wealth from overseas donors? Are determination morganatic criticisms?
MICHAEL ROTH: There are tons of morganatic criticisms of higher education. I don't deliberation overdependence connected national backing is the issue. Most of the national backing you perceive the property speech astir are contracts to bash circumstantial kinds of probe that are truly large investments for the country.
However, the criticisms of colleges and universities that we have, a mono civilization that we don't person capable diversity, that's a disapproval I've been making of my ain schoolhouse and the remainder of higher acquisition for years.
I deliberation we tin marque improvements. But the mode we marque improvements is not by conscionable lining up down a president, whoever that happens to be. We marque improvements by convincing our module and students to broaden our perspectives, to – to invited much governmental and taste views. Not to enactment up and conform to the ideology of those successful power.
But, yes, we person enactment to bash to cleanable up our ain houses and we ought to get to it. But to bash it nether the – nether this – the weapon of a – of an assertive authoritarian administration, that – that volition pb to a atrocious outcome.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you specify immoderate of the protests that adjacent Wesleyan had connected its field that were, you know, captious of the authorities of Israel, for example, and – regarding the warfare against Hamas and Gaza, bash you see them to beryllium xenophobic by definition, anti-Semitic oregon anti-Jewish?
MICHAEL ROTH: Oh, no, not – surely not by definition. There are tons of examples of anti-Semitism astir the country. Some of them are connected assemblage campuses. They're reprehensible. When Jewish students are intimidated oregon acrophobic to signifier their religion connected field oregon are – oregon are yelled astatine oregon - - it's conscionable horrible.
But astatine – astatine Wesleyan, and successful galore schools, the percent of Jews protesting for Palestinians was astir the aforesaid arsenic the percent of Jews connected the field generally. The – the thought that you are attacking anti- Semitism by attacking universities I deliberation is simply a implicit charade. It's conscionable an excuse for getting universities to conform.
We request to stamp retired anti-Semitism. Those 2 young radical conscionable murdered due to the fact that they were Jewish successful Washington, that's a large illustration of however unit breeds violence. But the – the onslaught connected universities is not an - - is not an effort to support Jews. On the contrary, I deliberation much Jews volition beryllium wounded by these attacks than helped.
MARGARET BRENNAN: President Roth, convey you for your clip this morning.
We'll beryllium backmost successful a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Negotiations for a Gaza ceasefire woody proceed arsenic the desperation for humanitarian assistance grows. Our Imtiaz Tyab has the latest.
(BEGIN VT)
IMTIAZ TYAB (voice over): Gaza's Nasser Hospital, overrun with casualties aft Israeli forces opened occurrence connected Palestinians connected their mode to assistance organisation constituent successful the confederate metropolis of Rafah. Health officials accidental astatine slightest 49 radical were killed and implicit 200 wounded, galore suffering from gunshot injuries. This man's member was killed arsenic helium waited to cod a nutrient parcel.
"This is wrong," helium says. "Let the full satellite spot this. See what the Israelis and the Americans are doing to us. They're lying to us. They accidental humanitarian aid, but past they termination us. Why?"
Palestinians accidental Israeli forces person repeatedly opened occurrence astatine assistance organisation points tally by the U.S. and Israeli-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. An allegation Israel denies. Jeojef (ph), which didn't beryllium a fewer months ago, is staffed with heavy equipped American contractors. The U.N. and different assistance agencies person refused to enactment with the radical saying it has, quote, "militarized aid," which goes against each humanitarian principles arsenic guiltless Palestinians proceed to wage the eventual price.
This video is of five-year-old Ward Elsheik Khalil (ph) from a week agone arsenic she escaped the flames that engulfed the U.N. schoolhouse her household was sheltering in. She survived, but her mother, brothers and sisters were each killed successful the Israeli strike. Asked what happened, Ward (ph) broke down. A rocket fell connected them, she said, and they died.
(END VT)
TYAB: And earlier we spoke with Ward's uncle, Iad (ph), to spot however she was doing. And helium told america she keeps asking for her parent and that she's successful superior request of intelligence support. Something not disposable to her oregon astir children successful Gaza.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Imtiaz Tyab, successful Tel Aviv.
We'll beryllium close back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's it for america today. Thank you for watching. Until adjacent week. For FACE THE NATION, I'm Margaret Brennan.
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